Does anybody know how to implement correctly the MIDI Tuning Extensions (non real-time AND real-time tuning). My friend and I have some doubts about these specifications if they are really working without bugs.

Beside this: we are still looking for a synthie or sampler no matter if hard- or software which is able to digest these messages... non real-time and real-time tuning.

Any hints will be very much appriciated.

Thilo from Germany

Sorry it's taken me a while to get to this.

The first issue that needs to be dealt with is whether or not it's mandatory for a GM instrument to support the scale/octave tuning extensions in the first place. Reading the updates to the specification from 1999 on, I can only find the word "required" in the GM2 Specification. So I expect you must use a sound module or synth that conforms to GM2 by bearing the GM2 logo then it should respond to the "tuning" messages. That is, it's going to have been built later than 1999. Several instruments I've come across, when you read their manual, actually point to a different, manufacturer specific, way of implementing tuning changes. Usually using an XG or GS Sys-Ex message(s). And often only implement a one byte change message.

When you do actually find an instrument and experiment with it you may initially not notice the subtleties of a few cents change in tuning unless, that is, you are already practised in tuning real acoustic instruments such as a piano or harpsichord. That is, you play through the circle of fifths and gradually tune the instrument to a "temperament". If you're looking for a synth that already had a range of temperaments built into it (not GM2) then see if you can find a second-hand Yamaha TX81Z. How useful or accurate the available temperaments are I can't say but it's somewhere to start.

I've found that a range of modules or sound cards from this manufacturer do respond to tuning messages but I've always used the messages as found in the devices manual. I own an SW1000-XG (sw1k), and MU128 and MU1000 with various plug in daughter boards that emulate in hardware the DX7 and the Prophet 5. The sw1k and MU128 were pre GM2 although there was a firmware upgrade to the MU128 that was supposed to make it GM2 compatible. These last two devices are still available via ebay (where I bought mine) across Europe. You can also find reviews of them on the Sound-on-Sound amagazine web site http://www.soundonsound.com you can enter a search for either sw1000 or mu128 and find the original reviews.

When trying to get subtle tuning changes I've often inserted pitch bend messages before each note. This allows IMHO a more exact way of getting the change needed. I don't enter them all myself but found in a couple of old DOS programs, that someone had already solved the problem of changing temperaments into pitch bends and then inserting a pitch bend before each note. If you're interested in experimenting with this method I can dig out the details and URLs for you.

Don't know if that answers your questions or helps in any way? If not please ask again. Best regards, SysExJohn.

Hi again Thilo,

Some further thoughts after looking in various manuals of equipment I own.

The Roland (Edirol?) SC-8850, an older sound module, with a GM2 logo on it, has in its manual in the MIDI section, detailed information about both fine and coarse master tuning as well as scale/octave tuning. So I would expect it to implement it. I also looked at my manual for my Yamaha MU1000 (an update of the MU128 not sold outside Japan I think) and it too had the same info. but I don't read Kanji too well !!!!!!! So I would expect the MU128 upgraded with the version 2 modification to support it too.

However if your intention is to experiment with different temperaments e.g. from the 18th century, then you will find scale/octave tuning a fairly blunt instrument. The smallest change that can be made is just 1 cent using the MIDI SysEx commands. IMO you need at least 1 and better 2 decimal places of cents change to be "in tune". It is possible using individual note pitch bend (but more difficult) to get greater accuracy.

It depends exactly what you're looking for in a sound module but it's possible that either the SC-8850 or the MU128 may suit you 2nd hand (they're not available new anymore). If you're looking for something new then the SonicCell from Roland is claimed to be GM2 compatible and has in its manual details of the master tuning (coarse and fine) and also the scale/octave tuning. You can probably get this from Thomann in Germany.

N.B. This is not an advert as I have nothing to do with Roland, Yamaha or Thomann.
Hope this helps,
SysExJohn.

And finally,

The master tuning functions allow one to set the overall pitch of the whole MIDI instrument. The coarse adjustment by around 2 octaves either way sharp or flat, the fine tuning by roughly a semitone (equal temperament) either way. You might want to do this in order to play in tune with another fixed pitched instrument, like a piano, which is slightly off pitch. i.e. A above middle C is not 440Hz. OR one may want to emulate an older way of tuning where A may have set at say 415Hz. OR one may want to change keys part way through a song but this would severely challenge one's keyboard skills so one changes the master tuning but continues to play only white notes. It's not unusual for a MIDI instrument to need a little time to adjust the pitch AND it may only change the pitch of new notes not notes already sounding.

Scale/octave tuning allows the definition of different temperaments of tuning and can be set to affect one, some or all of the available 16 MIDI channels. It allows us to temper our keyboards etc. to be more like the way that Bach and his contemporaries or precursors may have tuned their instruments. The way we tune today has only been widely accepted AFAIK since the early 20th century. So via MIDI we can send a shift of cents for each note in an octave to be tuned as we would like. A cent is one hundredth of a semitone in equal temperament. The command allows for about two thirds of a semitone range either way.

Usually, in my experience, these commands are issued at the beginning of a MIDI file and left as they are.

Hope that helps.
SysExJohn.

Dear SysexJohn,

Thanks a lot for your long answers. My friend and I are working for some years with alternative tunings. We started with pitch bends but stopped doing so because of the weak resolution. Pitch bending shifts the whole channel! So we routed to every semitone another channel. 12 channels were needed and only 4 left for other midi data. But the meager resolution was the main problem. As you mentioned: 0,01cent is good at minimum. This is also our experiance.

My question is: if there exist a MIDI-device which can receive
- Message #4 SINGLE NOTE TUNING CHANGE (NON REAL-TIME) (BANK)
- Message #6 SCALE/OCTAVE TUNING DUMP, 2 byte (!) format

http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml

We are developement a tuning software which retunes not sounding single notes. Since we didn't find a synth or sampler which is able to receive these messages we are still wondering why the MIDI manufactors doen't implement this MIDI-Standard.

Scale/Octave Tuning Dump, 1 byte format is fine but doesn't really hit our purpose.

Tomorrow I will continue to answer your posts.

Good night, Thilo

Yep, my experience too. Most manufacturers implement single byte scale/octave tuning in my experience. A solution to the "not enough channels" problem is to get a sound module that supports many more.

The MU128 and the SC-8850 both are 128 note multi-timbral and support 64 channels of MIDI. A1 to A16, B1 to B16 and so on. That will give you 5 instruments with 12 channels each. The MU128 is driven via an RS232 DB9 connector, the SC-8850 via USB. Obviously special drivers are needed.

I'll take a look at my manuals again for single note tuning change.

Best regards from Meckenheim, near Bonn,
SysExJohn.

As I said:my friend and I are interessted in single note tuning (non real-time and real-time). The MIDI TUNING as thea are described on the site:

- http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning.shtml
and
- http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning_extens.shtml

... are wonderfull and the best way to do microtuning.
Who can tell me why not a single companiy is able to implement these features in a synth?
- really sufficiant resolution!!!
- very flexible handling
- standarized.

I heared that the FM7 softsynth of Native Instruments does support some MIDI TUNING EXTENSIONS. We have to check this.

Thanks for your hints.

Best regards from Munich. I agree: Kein Leben ohne Bach!

Thilo

Hi Thilo,

I'm in full agreement with regard to the MIDI tuning extensions.

I imagine that at the end of the day it comes down to the market place. How many people out there play around with temperaments with real acoustic instruments let alone electronic ones? Frankly when I talk to musicians, even pianists and harpsichordists, I get met with blank stares of incomprehension when I talk about only octaves being in perfect tune with 12 TET. If I tell them that Bach almost certainly used a temperament other than today's bland mixture, with greater tonal colour as one moves from key to key, most have no appreciation for the fact that there have been different ways of tuning throughout the centuries.

If the marketplace doesn't even understand the issues what's the point of a manufacturer building an unused feature into a MIDI instrument? It only adds cost.

Yes, I too have wondered about Native Instruments. I have been looking more recently at the EastWest orchestral and choral sample libraries for use in creating classical and baroque arrangements.

Please let me know if you find out more?
Best regards,
SysExJohn.

I talked to one of the developer of Ivory. They consider to impliment the MIDI TUNING STANDARD, octave tuning AND single-note-changes... this is good news. But it is not there first thing to do. They have a long list of other features to manage. But it could happen this or next year. They seem to be quite familiar with this topic. So, we are looooooking forward that it's going to happen.

The main problem is that the marketplace is going for pop. They live in a sort of cage of musical unawareness. Classical musicians live in an analog-cage. They get angry if you speak about digital solutions.

Best regards, Thilo

Hi Thilo.

The issue for all manufacturers of synths, sound cards and modules is return on investment. Always has been, always will be. If thousands of musicians understood and demanded implementation of the MIDI tuning specification then it would be put into devices.

The fact is that most musicians are completely unaware of just how BLAND the 12 TET system is compared to alternate methods of tuning. 99% of musicians I've talked to are completely unaware of the fact that alternate tunings exist at all, let alone know of Werkmeister, Kirnberger, Valotti and Young to name but a few. Few know that Bach was not talking Equal Temperament when he created "das Wohltemperirte Clavier", nor that Clavier means keyboard not piano. The piano hadn't been invented when he wrote it in 1722. In fact IMO few professionals, unless involved in historically accurate performances, know about it either. So, why then put a feature in a synth if it never gets used?

You say clasical musicians are interested only in analogue, that's why marvellous devices like harpsichords still exist. Ever tried to buy a good one? $$$$$

Please let me know how you get on and if you do eventually find anything. I'm interested too.

Best regards,
SysExJohn
From a snowy Meckenheim (15cms!)

Thanks for sharing! I am convinced that music itself won't really evolve unless people don't consider the possibility of just intonation.

Harmony is one of the deepest level of music.

I am classical  musician (tenor) and I wondered for many years why the classical music doesn't evolve. I think because of the equal tempered tone system.  In order to go forward, some technical improvement is necassary. It is difficult but not impossible.

Dear SysExJohn! Don't be sad about that most people are not ready to deal with this delicate subject. It is as it is!

And it's good so. So you are not mainstream and in the position to discover new possibilities of expression.

Yesterday I bought the tuning software: li'l miss' scale oven (LMSO) made by Jeff Scott (MAC). I'll tell you more when I have tried it out.

"...that's why marvellous devices like harpsichords still exist. Ever tried to buy a good one?" I love to perform with good old instruments. No question! But what attracts me even more is to improve these instruments.

Good luck, Thilo

One of our members gave us this link:

http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/index.html

I don't see the exact answer to your question, but there is certainly a lot of information there about specific synths and how they support micro-tuning.

Forum Admin

Oh! I'm not sad that people don't understand it, just a little peeved that manufacturers have seen fit NOT to implement the tuning extensions into sound modules.

Improve upon the harpsichord?? Really! The piano we have today (the concert grand) I wouldn't call an improvement. LOUDER? Certainly. More beautiful? Hardly. Some of the instruments made in the 19th century and even in the early 20th were improvements in the sense that they had note by note rather than terraced dynamics and a great beauty of tone, but IMHO today's monstrosities should be burned as they leave the factory.

Now if you'd used the word differ I'd have agreed with you. I just love playing around with  synthesisers of all kinds.
It's snowing again!!!!!!
Rant over,
SysExJohn.

When I say "improve..." then I speak about for example
- retuning a hapsichord via computer (MIDI) in real time
- etc

Thilo

Thilo, have a look at this link: it explains how MIDI Tuning Standard bulk tuning dump messages were implemented in Max Magic Microtuner, a microtuning editor-librarian for Mac OS X (but that info is valid in general IMHO):

http://homepage.mac.com/cerullo/.Public/MIDI_Tutorial_154.htm

Salut,
Pivot

By the way Thilo, going back to your question:

> My question is: if there exist a MIDI-device which can receive
> - Message #4 SINGLE NOTE TUNING CHANGE (NON REAL-TIME) (BANK)
> - Message #6 SCALE/OCTAVE TUNING DUMP, 2 byte (!) format

Before thinking about the single-note and Octave dump, the basic assumption is for a manufacturer to properly implement the Key-Based Bulk Tuning dump: *that one* is the most important message because it allows you to send/receive a whole 128-note tuning in less than a couple of seconds. It allows you to tune-sync all your gear as soon as you press start on the sequencer, and it also allows you to move tunings around quite easily in the studio (especially if you have a good librarian). Once you have that message properly implemented then you can think about the single note, which is a nice addition.

Quoted from Pivot

Thilo, have a look at this link: it explains how MIDI Tuning Standard bulk tuning dump messages were implemented in Max Magic Microtuner, a microtuning editor-librarian for Mac OS X (but that info is valid in general IMHO):

http://homepage.mac.com/cerullo/.Public/MIDI_Tutorial_154.htm

Salut,
Pivot

And also have a look at the Gervill Java synthesizer: it is fully compatible with all MTS specs.

https://gervill.dev.java.net/

Thanks for your precious hint!

We will check it!

Thilo

The gervill-synth will do.
After two years of searching we have an appropriate sound module! Thanks a lot.

It has everything which is important for us:
open source! So everythink is possible...

A bit slow. JAVA!

Thilo