The MIDI Forum

  1. Clemens Ladisch
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  4. Tuesday, 22 January 2019
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If I want to build MIDI hardware (with DIN connectors) right now, and have the ability to support MIDI 2.0 later by doing just a firmware upgrade, what baud rate capability should I aim for?
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My reading of what's there so far shows no change to the electronics driving the standard MIDI DIN, so I'd expect 32,150 bps.
It's only USB and Ethernet that ar going to offer higher transmission rates. IMHO.
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CAN bus or ethernet is most suitable for a new midi standard. USB is not symmetrical so let hope that it is not part of 2.0.
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31250 bps would be grossly inadequate for 32-bit controllers on 16x16 channels. It was already inadequate back in 1990s.

Just require all MIDI 2.0 hardware to implement some form of Ethernet over twisted pair and Audio Video Bridging as a physical layer (with AVBTP or RTP-MIDI transport):

  • 100BASE-T1 and 1000BASE-T1 work over single unshielded twisted pair and could employ the same 5-pin DIN sockets - for legacy current loop connections, the transceiver could be cross-switched or auto-configured;
  • 1000BASE-T and 2.5GBASE-T work over standard 4-pair UTP cables and could employ 8-pin DIN 45326 connectors - these 8-pin sockets also accept 5-pin plugs for current-loop connections;
  • 100BASE-TX works over 2 pairs which also fits the 5-pin DIN connectors.
References
  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector#Circular_connectors
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CAN bus or ethernet is most suitable for a new midi standard. USB is not symmetrical so let hope that it is not part of 2.0.

It isn't. That is down to the USB standards committee.

31250 bps would be grossly inadequate for 32-bit controllers on 16x16 channels. It was already inadequate back in 1990s.

Back in '83 when MIDI first came out, 31,250bps was a good high speed. I know, I'd been working in data communications for more than ten years at the time.
Try using multiple ports then.
People have been making music quite (very?) successfully using just MIDI 1.0 and 31kbps for more than 3 decades.

Whether the USB standards people decide to implement MIDI 2.0 over USB 3.0 or the upcoming 4.0 is entirely up to them.
Likewise if the IEEE decide to implement the MIDI protocols over Ethernet is up to their standards body.
Likewise the obsolescent Firewire.
What manufacturers implement in their equipment is a matter solely down to the market requirements as they see them, nothing to do with the MMA.

As I posted earlier, I see no proposal for increasing the speed of the basic MIDI over DIN plugs.
It would require a lot of work and massive cost, if at all possible, to upgrade millions of older pieces of equipment to 62,500.
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What manufacturers implement in their equipment is a matter solely down to the market requirements as they see them, nothing to do with the MMA.
MMA exists to design and promote common standards for the manufacturers to implement. And without a commonly accepted high-speed link to handle the advanced capabilities, MIDI 2.0 protocol will not have such a broad adoption as MIDI 1.0.

IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging, a low-latency tight-sync extension of the Ethernet protocol, would be a perfect choice for a common physical interface scalable from device-to-device link to a large network. The related higher-level AVB Transport Protocol (IEEE-1722) does support MIDI payload, and MMA is currently working to update MIDI for AVBTP.

It would require a lot of work and massive cost, if at all possible, to upgrade millions of older pieces of equipment to 62,500.
Nobody proposed anything like that, the point was to use a different Ethernet connector for AVB streams.
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Dmitry said,
MMA exists to design and promote common standards for the manufacturers to implement. And without a commonly accepted high-speed link to handle the advanced capabilities, MIDI 2.0 protocol will not have such a broad adoption as MIDI 1.0.

Can you honestly see manuafacturers implementing Ethernet in their devices? Yamaha tried a while back, as I recall, without much success.
Yes, maybe MIDI 2.0 would invoke some new interest.
But, to be honest, I see little of general interest in MIDI 2.0. N.B. "general interest!"
Increased bandwidth is for many becoming a necessity these days, I accept.
Personally I find I can do all I need with MIDI 1.0 careful sequencing and multiple ports.

Maybe a few, high end, expensive devices, perhaps.

But it's just my 2 cents.
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Both Ethernet (AVB) and USB transports provide the bandwidth necessary to handle MIDI 2.0’s denser messages.
Both are on the roadmap for future MIDI expansion with USB being the priority. Also JIitter Time Stamps will help with timing.

When 5G wireless networks are available, people will be surprised by the speed. Even MIDI 2.0 is tiny compared to streaming video data.

The reason some people complain about USB speed is because some applications throttle what they send out to MIDI 1.0 speeds because currently the computer does not know if the external MIDI Out connection is going to a device connected via USB or 5 Pin DIn.
That issue could be addressed in designing a new USB MIDI 2.0 spec. Remember the current USB MIDI 1.0 spec is 20 years old

As for 5 PIN DIn, Electron had products several years ago that had 10 times the speed of MIDI 1.0 on the same 5 Pin DIN connector, but with a slight modification of the part for the UART. MIDI-CI provides a method for negotiation so it would be possible for two devices to negotiate to a higher bandwidth on 5 Pin DIN. MIDI - CI makes a lot of things possible and we just need to prioritize the work that will get done next.

The forum on MIDI.org is absolutely the right place for people who care about these issues about MIDI to provide their input.

Although we can’t actually reveal details of future MMA plans, the people who help prioritize the work in the MMA do read the forums.
THE MIDI ASSOCIATION (TMA)
The community of people who work, play and create with MIDI
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CAN bus or ethernet is most suitable for a new midi standard. USB is not symmetrical so let hope that it is not part of 2.0.

USB-C receptacles has two pairs of D+ / D- signals which will correctly map to the D+ / D- pins of the Type-C plug when plugged in either way, so this makes the plug both symmetrical and reversible...
Using the USB 2.0 standard or above and USB-C connectors, there is no problem with USB symmetry.

USB-C:
https://i.postimg.cc/rmSwQWpK/usb-C.png
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Can you honestly see manuafacturers implementing Ethernet in their devices?
Yes, I can. Ethernet over twisted pair is commonplace technology by now, with countless off-the-shelf AVB/TSN compliant 100/1000/2.5G/5G parts. All the required standards are already there, and established audio/MIDI companies like MOTU and Presonus already embraced AVB audio networking in their products.

All it takes for MI vendors to start going is a free open-source reference implementation of the high-level AVTP (IEEE 1722) and AVDECC (IEEE 1722.1) protocols, such as http://avnu.github.io/OpenAvnu / https://github.com/AVnu/libavtp , https://github.com/L-Acoustics/avdecc etc. MMA just needs to work with the IEEE and the AVNU to specify conformance profiles for transmission of MIDI over AVB networks.

Yamaha tried a while back, as I recall, without much success.
That would be Yamaha mLAN network protocol, implemented on top of the IEEE 1394 FireWire physical interface. Proprietary licensed software on top of patent-encumbered, royalty-based hardware protocol.

On the contrary, AVB/TSN suite (IEEE 802.1Q VLAN/SRP, IEEE 1588/802.1AS gPTP etc.) is based on open international standards supported by both silicon makers and IT/pro-audio developers.

I see little of general interest in MIDI 2.0. N.B. "general interest!" Maybe a few, high end, expensive devices, perhaps.
Standards need to come first so devices can follow later.

MIDI 2.0 is not such a radical departure for digital synth engines - however all these per-note controllers do require significant changes to the physical controls. If manufacturers will be able to improve keyboard controllers and offer these new means of musical expression in a simple and player-friendly way, general interest will follow.
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Can you honestly see manuafacturers implementing Ethernet in their devices?


Anyway MIDI 2.0 is not such a radical departure for digital synth engines - but all these per-note controllers do require significant changes to the physical controls. If keyboards could be improved to offer these new means of musical expression in simple and player-friendly way, then general interest will follow.


Don't you think Roli will be one of the leading companies to use MIDI 2.0?
They sure have some great devices capable of humanizing the playing aspect of MIDI instruments already!

Like the next-gen MPE devices, implemented with MIDI 2.0 :)

Craig Anderton Article
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some applications throttle what they send out to MIDI 1.0 speeds because currently the computer does not know if the external MIDI Out connection is going to a device connected via USB or 5 Pin DIn.
That issue could be addressed in designing a new USB MIDI 2.0 spec..
Great - full USB 2.0 Hi-Speed mode would sure be nice, as many users only have a few devices each directly connected to the PC. This will not improve device-to-device connection though.

Electron had products several years ago that had 10 times the speed of MIDI 1.0 on the same 5 Pin DIN connector, but with a slight modification of the part for the UART. MIDI-CI provides a method for negotiation so it would be possible for two devices to negotiate to a higher bandwidth on 5 Pin DIN
Digital current loop interface can't be improved to offer megabit speeds over several meters, this requires modern serial interfaces using differential signalling over twisted pair (Ethernet, RS-485, M-LVDS, etc).
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Some very interesting contributions to this thread.

It promises to be a very exciting couple of years in terms of new devices supporting MIDI 2.0 and higher speed interfaces, doesn't it.

I look forward to future announcements with great interest.
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Don't you think Roli will be one of the leading companies to use MIDI 2.0?
Sure, ROLI seem to take very active part in MIDI 2.0 development and testing.
However 49-key silicone pad with toy keys is just not my kind of keyboard controller.

I really look forward to Yamaha, Roland and others to start integrating touch/pressure sensitive pads into their traditional synth-action and weighted-action keys.

Like the next-gen MPE devices, implemented with MIDI 2.0
MPE is a kind of hack intended for older MIDI 1.0 devices, which uses additional MIDI channels to send per-note controllers.

On the other hand, MIDI 2.0 includes per-note controllers at the core level, and only needs MPE for backward compatibility.
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