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  1. Ed
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. Wednesday, 05 June 2019
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Hi there,

I perform live with a Cymatics LP16 which can play multitrack WAV files while also sending midi Program Changes whenever I start a song.
It successfully sends program change to my Prophet 08 but doesn't seem to be able to send it to the Boss RV500 pedal. Upon checking what was being transmitted with Midi Monitor, I've identified the Cymatics is sending the following on channel 1:

- (program number)
- bank select 0
- bank select (fine) 1

I understand the problem must be related with the bank information because if I just send a Prgm Change message with other gear (with the prophet 08 for example) it switches patches on the RV500 perfectly. Can anyone help me figure out if it's possible to make these two communicate? Or if not, recommend any gear that will help?

Here's the link to the midi implementation on the RV500, I don't believe I can change anything on the Cymatics LP16 end...
https://www.boss.info/us/support/by_product/rv-500/owners_manuals/06d2aceb-92dd-48a7-822f-4778f779f32e/
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Yeah, I hate it when I see other posts that don’t have an “ending”. We both spent time on this so it might as well stay well documented in case someone else goes through the same issue!
Regarding the 3-step thing, on normal operation you have a patch on each of the 3 switches to switch between (or 2 patches + bank up or down) but the 3rd of the pedals’ operating modes lets it have 2 reverbs/delays in series, one feeding into the other (the 3rd switch acting as tap tempo or fx parameter controls). So in essence, in that mode the combination of the 3 switches acts as one patch.

Thanks again for your help!
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  1. 6 days ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 1
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Ed,

Thanks for the update. A lot of people don't bother to confirm that things are sorted, which is not a lot of help for people reading the forum in the future.

I was just wondering what the point of the 3-step might be, then I remembered that the RV thing is a pedal, foot controlled, so it would make it easier to step through when using a foot.

Geoff
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  1. 6 days ago
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Hey Geoff,

I figured it out, I sent an updated reply roughly at the same time as you did so you probably didn’t see it.
It was a stupid mistake on my end. The mode I’m using on the RV500 makes it so that it only changes Patch every 3 programs. (On 1, 4, 7, 10, etc...). I setup 16 songs thinking it started at 0 so I had 3, 6, 9, etc...
It took me a while to figure it out because when making the program changes from a knob (on the MPC or the Prophet) and the prgrm only changes every 3 “clicks” it’s hard to tell which number actually sent the message, it seemed like the numbering was fine.
Thanks for your help, sorry for wasting your time!

Best,

Ed
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  1. 6 days ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 3
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Hello Ed,

I've checked in the original files you sent, and these files are OK.

The 'Feelings...' file contains the PC instruction, and the two BS commands, and all looks normal.

The other file that is supposed to contain the PC command only does in fact contain just that. No BS data. (There is some other normal midi data there as well, also in the other file, but that's quite normal so I take no notice of that).

I've not looked at the new file you sent, 'Nightfall..' Yet.

As for what's happening, dunno.

I still say that the USUAL way of doing this is to have the BS commands followed by the PC. Note, this is nothing to do with the SENDING software, it is totally the concern of the receiving device.

It is not impossible that a certain device COULD do it differently, i.e. PC followed by BS. The consequence of this would be that a specific midi file (containing instructions) would work on one device and NOT on another. Or more likely, would work on one device, and not on ANY other device. I think that most (all ?) other devices would do this the 'normal' way around (BS followed by PC) and the RV device ONLY might do it the other way. It might be that your software is trying to be clever, and if it gets PC followed by BS then it decides that this is wrong and 'corrects' this to the usual way around even though this is now WRONG for the RV device? You might test this using a very simple midi file player that is not clever enough to do anything with the midi data, merely play it.

Geoff
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  1. 6 days ago
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  3. # 4
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SECOND UPDATE

I figured it out. It's because of a bank operation setting I have on the RV500... it messes with the program change numbers so only some PC numbers will actually change the patch.. sorry for wasting everyone's time!

Best,

Ed
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  1. 6 days ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 5
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UPDATE

I tested everything again in the studio and the "Bank 0 Bank (fine) 1" messages were produced in the ableton midi export, my bad. I re-exported the midi file with Program Change only and according to Midi Monitor, the midi file is effectively only sending PC now, no bank or bank (fine) commands. (I've attached it as an example)

Problem is, RV500 still won't react to the program change message when it's sent by the Cymatics LP16.

If I try connecting the Midi Out on my Prophet 08 to the RV500 and change a patch with a knob, it sends a program change and is able to change the patch on the RV500. If I connect the midi out from my MPC Live and change the program, it also effortlessly changes the patch on the RV500.

For some reason, if the message is sent from the Cymatics, the RV500 won't do anything.

The full breakdown of what happens with the file I've attached when I play it on the cymatics is the following:

Cymatics midi out > Midi Monitor: prgrm change 18 on channel 1

Cymatics midi out > RV500: No change

Cymatics midi out > Prophet 08: patch 18 on current bank is selected

Cymatics midi out > Prophet 08 midi thru > RV500: patch 18 on prophet is selected, no change on RV500.


Any clue what could be happening?

Best,

Ed
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  1. 6 days ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 6
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Hey Geoff!

Thank you for your answer and sorry if I'm not being clear. All this time I've been thinking the problem is with the Cymatics LP16 but your answer got me thinking it might be with the midi file I'm exporting from Ableton. Right now I'm doing the following:

- Export midi file from Ableton.
- play it from Cymatics LP16 (Midi Monitor shows it as outputting PC number, Bank 0, Bank (fine 1))
- Prophet 08 switches program but does not switch bank (even though it's receiving the bank message above)
- RV500 does not switch program

I can't confirm right now if Ableton is capable of sending PC only. Is there any software for the mac that will let me open a midi file and see what's in there and/or just create a midi program change file from scratch?

I've attached an example file of one of my files and an attempt to create a midi file with PC only using Ableton. Can you confirm if the PC only file does indeed carry bank info?

Thank you for your time,

Ed
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  1. 6 days ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 7
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Hello Ed,

Not quite sure I understand what you're doing here.

Firstly, are you using midi files to replay, incl the midi commands you refer to, that seem to work OK in one set up but not another. If the exact same data is behaving differently, that does seem odd?

Secondly, your reference to 'Program Change' seems not consistent. Program Change (PC) is quite separate from Bank Select (BS) although in some setups you may need to use both, while in some situations you need to use PC only. If you say that in one setup then PC alone works fine, then maybe PC alone is all you need, and you should not need any BS. If you want to change between two patches that are both in the same bank, then you need PC only. BS would be needed only if you change between two patches (instruments) one of which is in one bank, and the other is in a different bank.

If you've got the midi data you're trying to get working in a midi file, it could be useful if you attached the data (in a ZIP) so that I could see what's actually there?

Geoff
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  1. one week ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 8
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I found it strange too, but the cymatics does indeed send the bank after the program change. I read somewhere that apparently this used to be purposely done on some machines.

That’s the thing, nothing happens on the RV500. On the Prophet 08 it changes the program in the current bank but the bank 0 and bank (fine) 1 don’t do anything, it always stays on the same bank.
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  1. one week ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 9
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Normally, the Program Select would come AFTER the Bank Select command(s)? The way you show it, the Program Select would select the program in whichever bank was active at that time?

When you do it the way you show, what sound is actually set? If any??

Geoff
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  1. one week ago
  2. MIDI Hardware
  3. # 10
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