The MIDI Forum

  1. Marcus
  2. Creating with MIDI
  3. Friday, 08 May 2020
  4.  Subscribe via email
As some of you may be aware, I'm trying to transcribe Beethoven's 3rd Symphony into MIDI format. I'm currently almost halfway done with the 1st movement, so I'll be preparing the 2nd pretty soon. In the opening bars of the 2nd movement, there are a few techniques I can't figure out how to emulate. Firstly, I don't know how to contain one measure within merely a position of an 8th note in a 2/4 time signature (3rd symphony 2.png). Second, I don't know how to mimic grace notes into a MIDI file (3rd symphony 3.png). This can be shown in the two images mentioned, which are found in the zipped folder attached to this post.

In the meantime, I'm aware that there's the complete 3rd Beethoven symphony on other sites, and from midiworld.com I downloaded both the 1st and 2nd movements that someone else did in MIDI. But in the 2nd movement, it appears that the sequencer kept the first measure as a full one, and avoided the grace notes highlighted in the double bass part.

Is something like this possible to implement using a MIDI sequencer? I use Anvil Studio.
Attachments (1)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Pickup bar translates to pickup measure, i.e. an anacrusis.
So, Anvil has a command that allows a measure with just a few notes, not the full measure to be created.
Try it.

JohnG.
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi John,

Thank you, but I've since decided to make the first measure a full one with the beginning notes at the end, and also make do without some of those double bass grace notes.

--Marcus
Comment
  1. John Garside
  2. 2 weeks ago
  3. #19
The full measure is the correct decision, but why miss out the grace notes?
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
In e-mailing Tom of Anvil Studio he pointed this out to me (see below) which I wasn't aware of.:
How to insert a Pickup Bar
Attachments (1)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hello Marcus,

I don't think that midi knows about a partial bar, and you may need to use a full bar and start with a rest of appropriate length. That is, in effect, what the music is doing anyway. Otherwise you'd need to use a different time sig for the first bar, then set 2/4 at the start of the next bar, and see what that does. But, why didn't the composer do that? Is there a difference?

As for the grace notes, there may be a complication if there is a difference between what Anvil will allow you to enter, and what midi will accept. Certainly midi can accept grace notes, although they may need to be 'tweaked' into the data after other things are done, and certainly after any Quantize has been done. You might need to adjust the midi note resolution if it will not initially accept the notes (will they end up as 16th, or 32nd, or less ?). When I've tried to play something into midi to record, I end up with a mass of such notes. I've looked at some of the pieces in the 'Classics in Sequence' book I mentioned before, and there are grace notes there, although not quite as small as you've got here, but the only comment in the notes is that they need to be added afterwards, esp after Quantize is done, so any problem is just the problem of getting them in.

Do remember. Composers certainly take liberties with the score, and performers will do likewise for 'artistic' purposes. Why should you be different?

Geoff
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi Geoff,

Yeah, I figured something like that might be the case. I was just double-checking.

I hope I didn't aggravate you in any size, shape, or form. Sometimes it's hard to tell emotions just by reading the post in the absence of emoticons.

Thank you,

Marcus
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Marcus,

No problem.

Aggravated?? Why on earth? I'm not aware of anything that you might have said that might have caused any aggravation.

Best of luck with your sequencing. Years ago, I'd got a few scores thinking I might try and do something, but I never got around to anything. That's aggravating. Me aggravating myself!!

Geoff
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hello Marcus,

To answer the first question, these first few notes at the end of the first measure are a very common feature of all sorts of music, not just classical.
E.g. many Irish jigs begin with a note before the main down beat.
They're often referred to as "pickup notes" or, more correctly, an anacrusis.

A MIDI file is normally made with the first bar set with the correct time signature, in this case of 2/4, and the pickup notes are added at the end of that measure.
What one can do, to avoid a long pause, is to set the tempo initially, to a faster one at Measure:Beat:Tick - "001:01:000" and then add the correct tempo (80?) at the appropriate point within the measure 001:02:240 (assuming 480 TPQN)

See attached file anacrusis.jpg

Alternately, one can make the first measure just 1/8 and the second measure 2/4.

As to the Contrabass, this is what I'd do: see GraceNotes.jpg.

Hope that helps?

JohnG.
Attachments (2)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi John,

Sorry for the late reply. Anyway, what's a pickup bar and what purpose does it serve?

--Marcus
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi John,

That's what I thought it meant, although I don't know exactly how to use that feature.

--Marcus
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi John,

I understand; but now I'm having trouble with how to implement changes such as those you mentioned through using Anvil Studio. I tried every possible, plausible way I could think of. Am I missing something with the program I normally use (Anvil, that is)?

Marcus
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hello Marcus,

I've downloaded the bits you've just sent, and I'll see if there's anything else.

But, initial thoughts. What are you using to play back the file? If the setup you use uses a fairly standard double bass sound, which would have a pretty slow attack, then the notes (pretty short duration I'd expect) might be to short to register any actual sound. If you want to hear them, you might need an alternative sound. If you need to check that the notes ARE sounding, put a PC (Program Change) in just before to set something like a piano (short attack) and then set the db back after the notes. If you do now hear something, then it's the envelope of the sound that's causing the problem. Oh, another possible solution might be to TEMPORARILY increase the volume for those notes?

Geoff
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
I recently discovered something.

As one can see in the zipped folder attached, I've done the first five measures of the 2nd movement to Beethoven's 3rd, as seen in the MIDI file titled "symphony_3_2_(nc)daitch.mid", but the notes don't look quite like the ones in the first five measures of the other file, titled "beets3m2.mid", which I downloaded from midiworld.com.

My discovery was in finding that the author of the latter MIDI file did indeed try to emulate grace notes in the double bass section. I overlooked that, because I was unable to hear those grace notes in the file.

Now I'm wondering how the author of that file managed to squeeze in any of those grace notes, also looking at the one in the violin section.
Attachments (1)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi Geoff,

I copied the MIDI World file and edited the copy; I tried your first suggestion, in which I didn't notice a difference; then I tried your second suggestion, in which I DID notice a difference. I was able to hear the grace notes very well after raising the volume. My problem is still unresolved though, because I've changed my mind and I now want to transcribe everything I can, including the grace notes, into the MIDI file on my own (without having to copy and paste someone else's work).

Marcus
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Marcus,

I would assume that the grace notes have been manually edited into the data.

I assume that the system you're using has either or both of an Midi Event screen or a Piano Roll type screen, and either of those should have the ability to edit the data. It's just a matter of which is nore convenient for you, as regards the way the software is done. You just need to add in the details of the notes in the right place. I see that the file that had the notes in had the grace notes about 141 ms long, and I note that for the set of three notes, the end of each was slightly overlapping the start of the next.

Specifically for one set, the first note was 3.077 to 3.218, the second was 3.205 to 3.346 and the third was 3.333 to 3.474. I assume that the overlap would have given the slurring.

NB - note that different devices may have sounds with slightly different envelopes. What you do to get the sounds heard on your setup might not be OK on another setup, but as long as you don't make the volume too much louder you should be OK.

Geoff
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi Marcus,

The reason you may not be hearing these notes correctly is because the author of the file has obeyed the 'slur' markings for the double bass in the score.
In order to achieve the slur effect using MIDI, the chanel is set to monophonic, and the notes are overlapped.
This is what has been done with this file. See "Eroica_2-02.jpg" below.

In this picture you'll see the notation of the first measure at the top left, below it the piano roll view (PRV) where you can just make out that the notes ovelap one another.
Lastly, as Geoff has mentioned, if you look at the List View, top right, you'll see that the 1st note overlaps the 2nd by 4 ticks (at 480 TPQN), the same with the 2nd to 3rd,
and the 3rd to 4th.
The way to make these sound correctly using a standard MIDI player is to undo the overlap, e.g. the first three grace notes need their length reducing ...
everywhere that they overlap.

The MIDI player soft/hardware should (N.B. should) make a sound something like the mp3 attached in the zip file.
This was made using basses from a virtual orchestra sample player.

The trouble with this way of working is that you can't have two sets of notes occuring simultaneously, like the pair of flutes from measure 46.
These have to be given their own separate MIDI channel to sound correct.



Any help?
JohnG.
Attachments (2)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Unlike so-called landmark nuances, grace notes never affect the subdivision of the rhythm or the "counting" of the bar music containing them, so there is no need to delete other bar notes to keep the time signature intact.
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
OK, thank you all for your helpful replies. :)

Now, if any of you guys are familiar with Anvil Studio, I would like to know how to manually insert grace notes into a MIDI file (like what Geoff assumed was the case) without having to shorten one or more of the other notes. If any of you are unaware of the file where I found grace notes allegedly inserted manually, please download the file I attached titled "Beethoven3rdSymMvt2.zip". The MIDI file in there that's not mine should be titled "beets3m2.mid" or something like that. The other file is mine, and it is incomplete.

Marcus
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Do not too many people here have enough experience with Anvil Studio to know how to manually insert grace notes into a MIDI project without messing up note space per measure? And believe me, I did do a Google search for forums focusing on Anvil, but I saw no reliable ones relevant to the software; there isn't even an official Anvil forum.

Do any of you have any suggestions? And if not, is there someone I can ask to help me move forward?
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi Marcus,

Sorry, away writing the Ave Maria from Verdi's Otello. (My wife's a semi-professional operatic mezzo!)
Trying to get some human feel into the string parts.

In composer view set the attributes as you can see in the following picture "GraceNotes.jpg".

What I did was to select the 32nd note value over at the right hand side and tick "triplet".
In order to get the two naturals I changed the Key to C major and then clicked where I needed the notes on the staff in the right place.
Then I unclicked triplet, selected the 16th note value (the score shows a dotted 8th note), and clicked that into place.
Then I changed the key back to E flat major to check the result.

Any use?

JohnG.
Attachments (1)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
0
Votes
Undo
Hi John,

Thanks for getting back to me, and it's quite alright.

Anyway, I've already found a way to put the double bass grace notes into the score. Now I'm trying to figure out how to put a grace note in the first violins part without having to mess up note space or decrease the length of any of the regular notes in order to accomplish it.

As you can see in the attachment, the author of the MIDI World MIDI file managed to put a single grace note in one of the measures without having to decrease the length of any of the other notes. Look at where the arrow I drew points. Can you figure out what he did, or should I come in contact with someone more familiar with Anvil?

Marcus
Attachments (1)
Comment
There are no comments made yet.
  • Page :
  • 1
  • 2


There are no replies made for this post yet.
Be one of the first to reply to this post!