As some of you may be aware, I'm trying to transcribe Beethoven's 3rd Symphony into MIDI format. I'm currently almost halfway done with the 1st movement, so I'll be preparing the 2nd pretty soon. In the opening bars of the 2nd movement, there are a few techniques I can't figure out how to emulate. Firstly, I don't know how to contain one measure within merely a position of an 8th note in a 2/4 time signature (3rd symphony 2.png). Second, I don't know how to mimic grace notes into a MIDI file (3rd symphony 3.png). This can be shown in the two images mentioned, which are found in the zipped folder attached to this post.
In the meantime, I'm aware that there's the complete 3rd Beethoven symphony on other sites, and from midiworld.com I downloaded both the 1st and 2nd movements that someone else did in MIDI. But in the 2nd movement, it appears that the sequencer kept the first measure as a full one, and avoided the grace notes highlighted in the double bass part.
Is something like this possible to implement using a MIDI sequencer? I use Anvil Studio.
In the meantime, I'm aware that there's the complete 3rd Beethoven symphony on other sites, and from midiworld.com I downloaded both the 1st and 2nd movements that someone else did in MIDI. But in the 2nd movement, it appears that the sequencer kept the first measure as a full one, and avoided the grace notes highlighted in the double bass part.
Is something like this possible to implement using a MIDI sequencer? I use Anvil Studio.
Many, many, MANY moons ago I used to be the administrator of MidiWorld.
Les Winters, the originator, handed it over to me when he became very ill, went back to his home country and later, sadly died.
The problem became, with the forum, that the number of spammers that jumped aboard daily became too much to handle.
The MIDI conversations dwindled to almost nothing, so I closed the board but left the files in place.
Somewhere, goodness knows where now, I've got a complete backup of the site, and a login, which I seem to have mislaid. :-(
It all happened something like ten years ago and I've moved from Germany, where I lived for some years, back to England in the meantime.
How time slips away, and so, so many people I knew are no longer with us.
Ah, well!
It's what happens, I guess, when you get old.
Try changing the grid to 64th notes and show 64ths too. You'll see, maybe how it was done.
JohnG.
Les Winters, the originator, handed it over to me when he became very ill, went back to his home country and later, sadly died.
The problem became, with the forum, that the number of spammers that jumped aboard daily became too much to handle.
The MIDI conversations dwindled to almost nothing, so I closed the board but left the files in place.
Somewhere, goodness knows where now, I've got a complete backup of the site, and a login, which I seem to have mislaid. :-(
It all happened something like ten years ago and I've moved from Germany, where I lived for some years, back to England in the meantime.
How time slips away, and so, so many people I knew are no longer with us.
Ah, well!
It's what happens, I guess, when you get old.
Try changing the grid to 64th notes and show 64ths too. You'll see, maybe how it was done.
JohnG.
Hi John,
I experimented a bit with Anvil, and while I'm still a little puzzled as to how the author of the original MIDI file managed to do it, I came up with a solution that will work for the time being. In the meantime, would you think it's a good idea to ask the developer of Anvil how that particular author managed to squeeze that grace note in?
Marcus
I experimented a bit with Anvil, and while I'm still a little puzzled as to how the author of the original MIDI file managed to do it, I came up with a solution that will work for the time being. In the meantime, would you think it's a good idea to ask the developer of Anvil how that particular author managed to squeeze that grace note in?
Marcus
Marcus,
I still think you need to be looking at the Events List screen, Anvil does have one. I quite accept that this screen will look the least understandable to you, but this is the screen that lets you get at the 'nuts and bolts' of the data (midi) This should allow the entry of the grace notes, defining the specific tick counts where each note starts and finishes.
I've not got Anvil here, so I cannot refer to the screens. I've looked at the manual for Anvil, and I note that it says VERY little about the Events screen, which is sad, as this is the screen where I would be most at home.
Within the Events list screen, you would need a way to add a new note, calculate the start tick, and the length, give the midi note number, etc. Another prog I was looking at (SynthFont) also has a reasonable Event list, but no visible way of adding a new line, but this does have a 'Duplicate Line' option so you just make a copy of one line in the right place and then change the details of the copy to the new details you need for the new note. Confusing?
I wonder how familiar John is with the Events list screen/options?
Geoff
I still think you need to be looking at the Events List screen, Anvil does have one. I quite accept that this screen will look the least understandable to you, but this is the screen that lets you get at the 'nuts and bolts' of the data (midi) This should allow the entry of the grace notes, defining the specific tick counts where each note starts and finishes.
I've not got Anvil here, so I cannot refer to the screens. I've looked at the manual for Anvil, and I note that it says VERY little about the Events screen, which is sad, as this is the screen where I would be most at home.
Within the Events list screen, you would need a way to add a new note, calculate the start tick, and the length, give the midi note number, etc. Another prog I was looking at (SynthFont) also has a reasonable Event list, but no visible way of adding a new line, but this does have a 'Duplicate Line' option so you just make a copy of one line in the right place and then change the details of the copy to the new details you need for the new note. Confusing?
I wonder how familiar John is with the Events list screen/options?
Geoff
Marcus,
I still think this screen is where you need to be.
Any chance you could do me one of the screen images of in the Events list, at a point where you need to be adding grace note(s), and I'll see what it looks like. It'll prob mean something to me. Otherwise, I'll need to check in the Muse?? software and see what that does, but I don't think that has an similar screen. The SynthFont system DOES mind you. that will let you do the sort of edit you need to do, and as I've got that already... But you maybe have NOT got that?
Geoff
I still think this screen is where you need to be.
Any chance you could do me one of the screen images of in the Events list, at a point where you need to be adding grace note(s), and I'll see what it looks like. It'll prob mean something to me. Otherwise, I'll need to check in the Muse?? software and see what that does, but I don't think that has an similar screen. The SynthFont system DOES mind you. that will let you do the sort of edit you need to do, and as I've got that already... But you maybe have NOT got that?
Geoff
Hi Marcus, Geoff,
Geoff, yes I work in Event List, mostly to enter MIDI Controller events when the controller lanes don't suffice.
(I've been messing with MIDI editing and programming (in Basic then) since the mid eighties on an Atari back then.)
But also in notation view for score entry and, equally, in PRV (for Marcus, Piano Roll View) to tweak note start and end timing and arrange note overlap for legato playing.
Marcus, take a look at the attached picture "GraceNotes2.jpg" where I've moved to the PRV and extended the view to 64th notes.(LH red box.)
That's the original you're looking at. Now look at the RH red box and you'll see I've deselected the quantisation to note start and note end.
Now take a look at second picture "GraceNotes3.jpg" and you'll see that I've been able to adjust the precise timing of the notes so they fit a legato style of playing.
In PRV you can enter notes and edit them to you're hearts content.
So, the grace note is a 64th note entered at beat 2 of the second measure, followed by an 8th suitable shortened to fit into the correct timing.
Any use?
JohnG.
( Must find time to get on with my own work but first cook some lunch!)
Geoff, yes I work in Event List, mostly to enter MIDI Controller events when the controller lanes don't suffice.
(I've been messing with MIDI editing and programming (in Basic then) since the mid eighties on an Atari back then.)
But also in notation view for score entry and, equally, in PRV (for Marcus, Piano Roll View) to tweak note start and end timing and arrange note overlap for legato playing.
Marcus, take a look at the attached picture "GraceNotes2.jpg" where I've moved to the PRV and extended the view to 64th notes.(LH red box.)
That's the original you're looking at. Now look at the RH red box and you'll see I've deselected the quantisation to note start and note end.
Now take a look at second picture "GraceNotes3.jpg" and you'll see that I've been able to adjust the precise timing of the notes so they fit a legato style of playing.
In PRV you can enter notes and edit them to you're hearts content.
So, the grace note is a 64th note entered at beat 2 of the second measure, followed by an 8th suitable shortened to fit into the correct timing.
Any use?
JohnG.
( Must find time to get on with my own work but first cook some lunch!)
Hi Geoff, John,
Thanks a ton for all of your help, I really appreciate it! Right now, I'm looking for feedback on the progress I'm making so far in my own MIDI file, although it's still very incomplete at the moment. You'll find the file in the zipped folder attached to this post. What do you guys think?
@John - I hope you enjoy your lunch!
Marcus
Thanks a ton for all of your help, I really appreciate it! Right now, I'm looking for feedback on the progress I'm making so far in my own MIDI file, although it's still very incomplete at the moment. You'll find the file in the zipped folder attached to this post. What do you guys think?
@John - I hope you enjoy your lunch!
Marcus
Marcus,
Just had a play-thru, sounds very good, although the 'tremelo strings' effect seems somewhat heavy on my system (using SynthFont with the 'Timbres of Heaven' SF2 file), I'll try it on the other system playing thru the Yamaha MU90r as well.
Using Synthfont, I can record as .WAV, but it gives a 14Mb file which is too large for the forum! Even zipped!! Hmm, wonder if it'll do mp3 instead??
Geoff
Just had a play-thru, sounds very good, although the 'tremelo strings' effect seems somewhat heavy on my system (using SynthFont with the 'Timbres of Heaven' SF2 file), I'll try it on the other system playing thru the Yamaha MU90r as well.
Using Synthfont, I can record as .WAV, but it gives a 14Mb file which is too large for the forum! Even zipped!! Hmm, wonder if it'll do mp3 instead??
Geoff
Marcus,
Oops, sorry, previous play was actually on 1st mvt, wrong file.
Now tried the correct file, no tremelo strings now!
Sounds good, but I note that all the instruments are playing full volume, and the same volums, and this does not sound right, also all pan set to middle (0) and this makes things sound odd again. This time done a compare between the Yamaha device and the purely digital sound of SynthFont and the latter sounds better, but maybe the former may need some coparable adjustment re reverb etc?
Did this example 0:48 sect, include the grace notes or have they not got in?
Geoff
Oops, sorry, previous play was actually on 1st mvt, wrong file.
Now tried the correct file, no tremelo strings now!
Sounds good, but I note that all the instruments are playing full volume, and the same volums, and this does not sound right, also all pan set to middle (0) and this makes things sound odd again. This time done a compare between the Yamaha device and the purely digital sound of SynthFont and the latter sounds better, but maybe the former may need some coparable adjustment re reverb etc?
Did this example 0:48 sect, include the grace notes or have they not got in?
Geoff
Hello Marcus,
Volume and Pan will both need attending to. Not sure if you've dome anything yet in the 1st mvt?
Pan isn't too bad, you just need to look at the standard plan for the setup of an orchestra and assign pan accordingly to match, and the initial setting at the start of the piece will stay put right through. And there's prob a standard setting you can find somewhere and copy, i.e. someone else has already worked it out.
Volume is more of a problem, as this can change often during the piece, both as notated by the composer and as tweaked by the conductor. BUT there's the additional problem that the various devices that might be used for playback may have different RELATIVE volumes as regards different instruments. No way round this, I guess? If your settings arouse any complaint, just put it down to YOUR 'artistic license'??
Geoff
Volume and Pan will both need attending to. Not sure if you've dome anything yet in the 1st mvt?
Pan isn't too bad, you just need to look at the standard plan for the setup of an orchestra and assign pan accordingly to match, and the initial setting at the start of the piece will stay put right through. And there's prob a standard setting you can find somewhere and copy, i.e. someone else has already worked it out.
Volume is more of a problem, as this can change often during the piece, both as notated by the composer and as tweaked by the conductor. BUT there's the additional problem that the various devices that might be used for playback may have different RELATIVE volumes as regards different instruments. No way round this, I guess? If your settings arouse any complaint, just put it down to YOUR 'artistic license'??
Geoff
Hi Geoff,
Thanks for your replies. I think I've got all the grace notes in up to the point where I'm at. Also, I'm well aware of the "every instrument at the same volume" issue. However, playing different volumes, emulating the dynamics notated by Beethoven into MIDI, sounds a bit choppy on my PC. Believe me, I've experienced something like that, not on my own MIDIs, but on those I downloaded from MIDI World. The ones from that site use different volumes, and they sound rather messy on my PC. So I don't think I'm gonna change the volume in whole or in part on any of my MIDIs.
I hope all this helps.
Marcus
Thanks for your replies. I think I've got all the grace notes in up to the point where I'm at. Also, I'm well aware of the "every instrument at the same volume" issue. However, playing different volumes, emulating the dynamics notated by Beethoven into MIDI, sounds a bit choppy on my PC. Believe me, I've experienced something like that, not on my own MIDIs, but on those I downloaded from MIDI World. The ones from that site use different volumes, and they sound rather messy on my PC. So I don't think I'm gonna change the volume in whole or in part on any of my MIDIs.
I hope all this helps.
Marcus
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