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The MIDI Forum

  Sunday, 28 February 2021
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I have 2 different MIDI files created a long time ago (not by me). I'm using Studio One 5.1. My problem is this :

Using file (a), I assign an Ample Sound Guitar to the track with a TH-U amp. I play the track it sounds terrific.

Using file (b), I assign the exact same guitar to it but the guitar sounds dull and lifeless,

Neither track was created for a guitar. I think one was a clarinet and the other maybe an oboe. I've checked cc07 and cc10 as well as pitchbend, I see nothing there that could account for the change. Obviously there is some difference somewhere probably some CC info I am unable to see, but I have no idea how to find it.

I tried importing that specific track into a new instance of Studio One. If I then assign the same guitar and settings, it's different to both (a) and (b) and sounds harsher.

Is it possible for a CC message to get from one track to another? Is there any software or method to check EVERY CC message in the track / mix? Is there any way to clear ALL the CC messages from the entire song?
more than a month ago
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#8115
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Hello,

Yes it could be a CC setting. One of the basic ones, or even something like Reverb, Chorus etc.

I'm not familiar with Studio One, does it have an 'Events List' screen? This would be the clearest way of spotting what CC settings are there. A 'Piano Roll' screen may well allow them to be checked, but they're usually not as visible.

I have various tools that will probably not work on your computer (old DOS software). If you attach the two files I could report back on any likely differences. The midi player system that I use on my Windoze machine here (SynthFont) does include an Events List on a track-by-track basis, that might be useful. Remember that any CC commands will be Channel specific, you might have a CC for the channel you're using for the guitar that is in another track - maybe even a track that isn't doing anything else. You could check this by muting the tracks other than the one that has the guitar and see what that sounds like, if it suddenly sounds better then the errant CC is in another track, if it still has the same problem then it's in the same track.

A midi event would not normally change tracks, but if you've done a block change then a specific event might have been changed accidentally. NB again, it's the Channel the CC is acting on that's important, NOT which track it's in

Geoff
more than a month ago
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#8116
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Is there any software or method to check EVERY CC message in the track / mix? Is there any way to clear ALL the CC messages from the entire song?


I don't know about Studio One, but there is a tool 'MIDICSV' that converts MIDI files to text files, in CSV (comma separated values) format that can be used to inspect every event and metadata included in your standard MIDI files. There are two command line programs: 'midicsv' to convert midi files to text, and 'csvmidi' to perform the opposite conversion, maybe after removing any unwanted CC event from the text representation. Please read all the documentation and examples here: https://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/midicsv/

If you use Windows, there is a ZIP archive containing both programs: https://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/midicsv/midicsv-1.1.zip
If you use macOS, you may install it from homebrew: https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/midicsv
more than a month ago
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#8117
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Hi Geoff,

Is there a PM or something I can send the files with? They are quite big.
One is 66KB the other 28KB
more than a month ago
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#8118
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Hello Mikheil,

I've sent you a PM. The files are not THAT large, esp if they were packed into a .ZIP file.

If you do send them, please detail which file sounds the better, also specify which Track, and which Channel, you set the Guitar sound to as I'm assuming that this sound will be dependant on processes outside of the midi file so I will not hear the problems you are describing. I'll just be reporting on the various midi settings within the files. Specifically any differences between the two files, and any settings that might be causing the sort of problems you describe.

Geoff
more than a month ago
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#8119
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Besides CC, there can be some common SysEx.
Why don't you guys publish both files here for we could have a look?
more than a month ago
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#8120
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Geoff, How do I get a PM? Nothing in my (protonmail) box? I have problems finding my way around this site still
more than a month ago
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#8121
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When you Log On to the forum, you should see at the top the little envelope indicator for 'Messages', and there may now be a little red marker showing '1' there. If you click on that, you should see the PM.

As Sema suggests, you could get others involved as well. It took me a couple of tries to get attachments to work, mind you. A while back, the site would not accept .mid files, but now it does. I think it does accept .zip files, but not .ZIP (so as I still use the old PKZIP software, which creates the file as .ZIP, I need to remember to rename it as .zip).

Geoff
more than a month ago
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#8122
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According to the message on the site, it says upload files (Maximum File Size: 2MB

66MB is a bit bigger I would have thought unless this site uses Non-Euclidean math

I sent you the files.
more than a month ago
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#8133
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Just to tidy this up - for the time being?

I got the two midi files, which are fairly substantial orchestral works. Opera in fact.

I've looked at the midi data, and they are fairly normal midi files, and there are two conrollers ONLY, one is for Volume, the other is for Pan. These will not be causing any problems. Apart from that, the file descibed as sounding better contains no midi instructions for Patches, i.e. no Program Change. The other file does contain such midi instructions,, i.e. Bank Select and PC (as would be used for GS sounds), although most of the data sets zero for both, which will set Acoustic Piano, which is NOT appropriate to the score.. Clearly, the instruments are being set by other means.

So, the midi files are NOT the cause of the problems.

OP is using Studio One, which seems to be a substantially VST system, so I guess that in this case everything is VST, and I assume a number of different VST modules. The problems must relate to how these components are linked/controlled, and this does not seem to be anything to do with midi. OP now refers to the problem of 'keyswitches', and this could be connected. He's going to look further into this.

Geoff
more than a month ago
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#8135
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Just to add a little here:

Keyswitches are notes that are used to invoke different 'articulations' of an instrument, and are fairly common in orchestral VSTi's.

If you look at the screenshot below, you will see an extended piano keyboard at the bottom of the picture.

Violin.jpg

The notes displayed in black and white are the 'playable' sampled notes, the ones shaded pink invoke various articulations, e.g. pizzicato, tremolo, with mutes, etc.
You'll notice these notes lie within the playable range of other instruments e.g. the cello, which uses keyswitches an octave lower.

Cello3.jpg

So substituting one for the other will often lead to playback problems.

JohnG.
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