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  1. Steve
  2. Creating with MIDI
  3. Monday, 21 August 2017
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Hi - I'd be really grateful for any help with this.

I've recently bought a Kawai N37 digital piano. I want to control this using Cubasis2 on iPad.

I have a seven track project which works fine with the Cubasis internal instruments. When I set the midi outs (on Cubasis) to seven tracks on my piano, which has a 16 track multitimbre facility and 350 instruments, I can hear all seven tracks but they are each played by the default piano sound. I'm looking for a way to tell it to use different instruments on each track.

I also use a Korg microstation. This works fine with the cubasis as I'm able through the display to say which sounds on the Korg I want to use. The Kawai doesn't seem to have these features which is why I'm looking to Cubasis to do it.

Any help much appreciated
Thanks
Steve
  East Sussex, UK
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Hello,
Seems like the Dig Piano - Kawai - is not recognising, or not receiving, Program Change instructions.

You need to check that the Kawai is able to receive PC (Program Change) and that it uses the normal codes. You need also to make sure that the Instrument number is appropriate (i.e. the Software process may use GM patch numbers, the Kawai may use something else).

You have the manuals!

If the Korg DOES work, then seems PC commands are being sent.

If you can save the data as a midi file, and send me it, I can look inside and see EXACTLY what's there. That would be a help.

Also, check the Patches/Instruments you are using. Is the Patch ## the same for all three units (Software, Kawai, Korg) - check this in the manuals. However, if this was the total answer, I'd expect the Kawai to be playing different things on each channel, even if the wrong things, but not the SAME patch on ALL channels.

Geoff
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Just looked at manual on line for kawai CN37. Is it CN37, you originally put N37?

According to Program/Instrument numbers, the Program change system is different on the unit. Almost all settings require a BANK select AND a Program Number. So the Kawai needs two commands. The other units prob work fine with one command (Program Change) only.

Geoff
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Hi Geoff - sorry I didn't get back. I sort of gave up with this and didn't see your replies. many thanks for engaging with this. After that question I went back to Kawai through their European branch and they were pretty clueless - and, actually, indifferent. No-one there was able to achieve the simple task of getting different instruments to sound on different tracks using a sequencer.

I've now returned to the problem and am still getting nowhere.
I found that I could set program changes through the Cubasis 2 App. but it's very fiddly because they have to be drawn onto the screen and cannot be input numerically.

I still believe there must be a way to use the Kawai to make this work. It's possible to record tracks directly onto a USB stick but that doesn't allow any editing, not even balancing the different tracks volume wise!

I can play around with program numbers but I'm still failing to make it play more than one different sound at a time.

I'm not sure that I know how to send the data as a midi file.

I found a document on from Kawai on midi but I still don't know what to do with it. Attached. Whoops, I got a message saying that file was unsupported.
It's here:

https://www.kawai-global.com/data/manuals/CN37_EN_MIDI_Settings_Manual.pdf

Apologies again for not seeing your post.

Steve
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Hello,

I'm still here!

I've d/l the manual, I'll have a look at it.

It would have been nice to see the actual midi being sent, but it's easy for me to say that, but not so easy to achieve if you don't know what you're doing.

It may be that the piano sound is the default instrument for all the channels, and you're not sending program change commands to set different instruments, or the messages you do sent are not getting there (maybe they all go to the wrong channel).

Can you play a pre-made midi file. One thing that might help is that I send you a known midi file, you play it, and report on the sounds made? OK?

Geoff
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The manual you refer to above is onlt a part of the docs, this one seems to refer mainly to certain setup procedures regarding midi. These MIGHT well contribute to your problem, but the details given for the different settings are not clearly explained, so I'm not sure. Some quick experimentation would clarify I'm sure.

The bulk of the detail in in a much larger Owners Manual, this is also available via the web. I've had a quick look at that, specifically the Program List.

I must have looked at this before, hence my comments a year ago about the Program Change differences.

Looking at this again, there is an initial bank of 128 sounds, which all expect a LSB Bank Select of 0 (zero). This may well be satisfied with defaults, i.e. doing JUST the Program Change instruction SHOULD select an instrument. You would need to have the Midi Settings 'Multi Timbral' item set as on1 (on one). I think that having this as 'off' would mean that multi timbral would not work at all, and the third setting 'on2' (on two) would mean that all program changes would involve three midi commands, for MSB, LSB and PC, and these settings are quite different from anything else.

The 'on1' are not ideal in any event. There are 128 sounds all using LSB of 0 and Program Change of 1 to 128. The start of this list is close to GM sounds, but the further down the list you go, the further you get from GM. So, a GM midi file may well 'sort-of' work, but ideally you'd need to change all the instrument assignments to suit the Kawai. Instrument 1 is standard piano, and will be the initial default for all channels. Oh, the list continues with further sounds after the initial 128, now requiring the LSB value of 1, then there are more sounds needing a LSB of 2, and certainly these would be accessible ONLY with the full/correct Kawai version of Program Change. In some ways, this system may be leaning towards GS/GM2, but I don't think they're right for that either.

In your case, it appears that PC (program change) is not being done at all. This would be the case if your keyboard is set to on2, so that's one place to start.

Geoff
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That's very useful Geoff. Many thanks. I think it's pretty much as you say!
I have now managed to make program changes within on1 (because that if the default multi timbral). It's really fiddly because the changes have to be drawn on the screen with a finger and it's so easy to be one or two sounds out when the finger is lifted.
Next I'm going to play with LSB values to see whether I can get the other instrument sounds. There are some CC settings (not sure what that stands for) and I believe from something I read earlier the number is CC 32. Just getting it to settle on a 1 or 2 is really hard with the draw technique but I'll persevere.
I suppose I should invest in a decent laptop and software program. I wonder if there's an iPad app. that allows program change by entering the required digits rather than moving the finger up and down the screen.
Thanks again - I'll let you know how it goes!
Steve
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Hello Steve,

Sorry about the CC, this is an abbreviation for Contol Change (or Change Controller). Many midi devices accept modification to various 'controllers' such as volume, tremelo, etc via control changes, and there is a list of Controller numbers, and your devices may or may not support certain ones. The more fancy (and expensive) the device, then the more controllers it may support. The midi data will require three bytes for this, the first byte to signify CC and the Channel, the second byte for the controller number, and the third byte for the new value for that controller (on that channel).

Bank Select (which your device needs, it appears) uses two controllers to handle the setting of LSB and MSB, one uses Controller 0, and the other uses controller 32 (or 20 in Hex), hence your reference to CC 32. To complete the sound/voice selection, these commands must be immed followed by a normal PC (Program Change) command. I'm guessing however that in mode on1, where the system required JUST the LSB of 0 and the PC number 1-128, then the PC alone may still work to select an instrument, so a standard midi file will still do something useful even if the sounds selected are not totally correct (but maybe not too far off).

I agree though, the touch screen system you have does NOT sound very convenient. I can understand the difficulty! I do NOT understand how folks manage with iPhones!!

Geoff
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Steve,

Just re-read your original message.

Any chance you could save your project as a midi file (SMF) and attach it to your next message. You may need to zip it first for the attachment to be accepted.

I can try the file, and more important, look at the data insode, and this may help determine the nature of the problems. Please also indicate what instrument each track/channel OUGHT to be.

Geoff
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Hi Geoff,

I had some success with this. I can set up and record on tracks using the PC and CC32 (for the MSB).
However, this is only in principle because it is actually impossible to set the MSB to 1 or even 2 because it is too fiddly (I've really tried with this. The screen is graded into 128 and for my purposes only 0,1,2 are of any use and I can't shift it from the 0).

The CN37 allows USB midi recording so I made the beginnings of a track with that (attached) in the hope that if I then imported it into Cubasis it would do the trick of setting up the piano for the same sounds. The sounds are close to what I intended when I play it on my PC which must have GM or something but were way out on Cubasis. The instruments I chose were Flute, Clarinet and Bassoon from Others: Reed and Pipe, pg 141 of the manual.

Looking at the midi manual I sent you there are two settings, Send PGM and Trans.PGM change. Do you think there is any way to use these to tell the sequencer what I want?

What I really need it to hear the sound of the instrument I'm playing rather than change the sound after recording so I wonder if there's a way of setting up a template. Could this be done through the raw midi file perhaps, so that if I import it into Cubasis it will has the MSB and program change already done?

Please don't worry if you lose interest in this! I'll probably be away from email for a few days now so If you do reply and I don't get back that's why.

Steve
Pressed Send and it tells me my file is an unsupported format so that's why it didn't come.
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Steve,

Thanks for the note.

Regarding the file send, guess what!

Although this site is all about midi, and belongs to midi.org, the forum process does NOT support midi files.

That's why I suggested zipping the file, and attaching the resultant .zip. We're not doing this to save space, it's just to get a file-type (.zip) that the attachment process will accept.

And yes, it would be no problem to use multiple midi files. One file (pre-prepared, even by someone else) that you send first to ensure certain settings, and could use every time, followed by a second file for the actual music, but you'd need to make sure there was nothing in the second file (like PC settings) that will un-do something set in the first file.

There are software ways around this. Cubase may allow the merge of two or more files. Or something else could be used, but may be too fiddly for you.

Geoff
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